Curse

WasAGuest · May 17, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrial heart

It's unfortunate that many people here don't mention the faction earning potential outside of supply quests over and over...

Personally i love the 12v12 and challenge mission for faction and they offer quite a challenge. I think initially our alliance was "farming" alot, but then most of us have switched to the challenge and 12v12 alliance battles for a change of pace, and fun!

I agree, it is unfortunate. However, it is the nature of people to find the easiest most direct route to their goal and there is no "fair" way to fix it.
Anet could up the rewards of PvP and then be called on it for favoring PvP players. Or, they could up the rewards for PvE and called for favoring PvE players. I still stand by what I said before Factions came out, mixing the two play styles will never work completely. They are far too different and have different goals. They can meet in the middle, but the second either has an edge, Anet will be called on it and the flame wars begin.
There is, however a "fix" for faction farming. I'm gonna get shot (flame broiled, cooked, roasted and hung) for saying it, but I've lived through worse. Adding the dynamic loot tables (in a matter of speaking) to the repeatable quests would spread the quest rewards out some. In other words, the more the Luxon Supply quest is done, the less it rewards in exp, gold and faction. I mean, really, how many boxes of supplies do these guys need? The subtracted amount of faction/exp/gold from the over farmed supply route could go towards the other repeatable quests making them worth more.

As it stands, Luxon supply runs; Kurzick Duel matches are king of FF spots. Jade and Aspenwood are ghost towns for the most part. The other quests are done, mainly till people find the above mentioned ones. And the challenge missions... ugh. I feel like I played a bad version of Pac Man (see "dot" grab "dot" avoid all but bosses. Ie, eat power pill and get the boss).

Swinging Fists · May 17, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

You want to make the battle line something that people care about ?

Make the quality of the drops in the elite missions of each side vary with how much property that side controls. Simple as that. Then people will be fighting Luxon vs. Kurzick.

But then I guess you'd probably have to have some control over Kurzicks entering the Luxon mission and vice versa.

Jagflame · May 17, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

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You don't want PvE questing or titles to earn you access. The Shiro example doesn't really work cause, it is supported just through game play - you quest, do missions and suddenly (very quickly) are facing Shiro. Opening up the Elite missions after Shiro is dead would also fit within the game mechanic.

I'm not sure if you're saying opening it after Shio is dead is good or not here... you seem to contradict yourself. I am saying it is not a good solution because first off it's simple to do, but mainly because it has nothing to do with guilds/alliances.

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Are you wanting something more repeatable to gain access? Meaning, do something and you have access for X hours/days? Access gained for a one time trip?

No, I don't know where I said anything about access limited to a certain time period, so I don't know what you're getting at.

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Permanent Unlocking is the only fair way to really implement it. Is it fair to the alliance that controls the city? Probably not, but that's Anet's fault for making such a goofy system in the first place; and players shouldn't be "punished" for a poor design. The Favor system is poor, the faction system is just as bad if not worse.

I actually like the favor system, but maybe that is because I do both PvP and PvE and I don't see the problem with any link between the two. But anyways, I absolutely love the idea of alliances controlling cities, it is one of my favorite ideas that took place in factions, even if my alliance will probably never hold one. Simply because something doesn't directly benefit me doesn't make it bad, and I recognize that.

But I never said anything before about permanent unlocking. However, if it is permanent unlocking then it would have to be earned somehow more challenging than if it were not.

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If the alliance holders (farmers extreme - said with respect... that's a lot of time farming to hold those cities these days)

Well no, not really, it just depends on how many people you have. I already mentioned that 500 people each farming 10k faction (under an hour if you're doing the luxon supply run) a day make 5 million faction per day. The last time I was on, the leading alliance had less than 10 million faction.

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restricts play for others

Why do people keep falling back on this? It does not restrict play from others, it is incredibly easy to join a high-faction alliance if that is what you desire.

For me, more happiness would be derived from the work to get to the elite mission and the satisfaction of completeing my goal than the actual mission ever would.

Age · May 17, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Yes make them avial to all.

Teklord · May 17, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

I'd personally like to see it where every town has something unique (or at least mostly unique) to offer to the controlling faction. Any member of the controlling faction could gain access to this unique thing. Then by using competitive battles to move the line in the sand (or Jade) the opposing faction could conquer towns that originally belonged to the other faction and thereby gain this unique feature for use by members of that faction.

To me this would be fun incentive to attempt to get into PvP if though I'm only a casual player. Also I'm very much against the idea of faction farmers having control to any unique content the game has to offer. I don't mind the amount of faction donated to your faction allowing you to put your name on a town and have some little advantages like cheaper merchants and the like, but not access to unique content.

It'd be fun to have access to certain unique to one side of the border content and that you could fight to gain access to content that starts in the opposing factions territory (bonus content unique to that faction that is). Now granted the same argument could be made that this is restrictive, but so far as I can tell it doesn't take much to switch factions should you want to.

That being said I suppose as soon as one faction gained most of the territory that nobody would fight for the other faction. Perhaps ala Ladder style the border line could reset every four months or after a period of inactivity in regards to the line in the sand.

Either way you slice it, there is no complete win-win situation.

Buoyancy · May 17, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

I'm not sure if you're saying opening it after Shio is dead is good or not here... you seem to contradict yourself. I am saying it is not a good solution because first off it's simple to do, but mainly because it has nothing to do with guilds/alliances.

The fact that it has nothing to do with guilds and alliances is exactly why it's a good solution. There shouldn't be any kind of requirement to belong to any organization to experience any part of the PVE game.

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Why do people keep falling back on this? It does not restrict play from others, it is incredibly easy to join a high-faction alliance if that is what you desire.

Really? I can join a high faction alliance with 10 guilds without leaving my current guild?

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For me, more happiness would be derived from the work to get to the elite mission and the satisfaction of completeing my goal than the actual mission ever would.

Why? It's not like the so-called "work" provides any difficulty or challenge besides keeping your eyes open. You might as well just write a bot to do the farming, because that would at least have some difficulty attached to it.

WasAGuest · May 18, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

I'm not sure if you're saying opening it after Shio is dead is good or not here... you seem to contradict yourself. I am saying it is not a good solution because first off it's simple to do, but mainly because it has nothing to do with guilds/alliances.

No contradictions at all. When a guild gets together and beats Shiro, it's a guild thing. I mainly play with guildies. Some do, some don't. I imagine, with the difficulty of the Elite missions, getting a constant group together, PuGs wont cut it, so looking to guild/alliance members further make it a guild thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

No, I don't know where I said anything about access limited to a certain time period, so I don't know what you're getting at.

You didn't, I wasn't sure where you were going either, so I took a shot at a guess what you meant. I know now, so thank you for answering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

I actually like the favor system, but maybe that is because I do both PvP and PvE and I don't see the problem with any link between the two. But anyways, I absolutely love the idea of alliances controlling cities, it is one of my favorite ideas that took place in factions, even if my alliance will probably never hold one. Simply because something doesn't directly benefit me doesn't make it bad, and I recognize that.

From the look on these boards, you seem to be of the minority on liking the favor system. That's not a bad thing, mind you, just seems that way. More people complain about the favor system and now the faction system cause it restricts access and is considered "false advertising" (in a way) as Anet claims the game is built for the casual gamer. Yet, winning Hoh, or the massive faction farming required is far from being casual as advertised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

But I never said anything before about permanent unlocking. However, if it is permanent unlocking then it would have to be earned somehow more challenging than if it were not.

I never said you did, that was my idea... and that of many others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Well no, not really, it just depends on how many people you have. I already mentioned that 500 people each farming 10k faction (under an hour if you're doing the luxon supply run) a day make 5 million faction per day. The last time I was on, the leading alliance had less than 10 million faction.

And we look at the uber dull, non-elite way of faction farming. This has nothing at all to do with skill over time, hence the system at work is broken. Or did Anet suddenly change it's moto of skill over time played and I missed it? Farming faction should have nothing at all to do with gaining access to anything. It takes zero skill and when standing in B Hollow, I get the image of that old school game "Lemmings".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Why do people keep falling back on this? It does not restrict play from others, it is incredibly easy to join a high-faction alliance if that is what you desire.

Because we purchased a game that allows for play with friends and family and would prefer to do that rather than join some "high-faction" farming alliance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

For me, more happiness would be derived from the work to get to the elite mission and the satisfaction of completeing my goal than the actual mission ever would.

Same here, but due to poor design and lack of options provided, this is the best we can come up with.

As with all things in GW, it's a matter of opinion and a point of view. Your point of view stems from enjoying both PvE and PvP; whereas I can't stand PvPs rushed feel and therefore don't play that meta game. I have always stated that merging both game styles would never completely work and I'm still waiting to enjoy some crow pie if Anet ever proves me wrong. So far, all we have is inner faction bickering over Elite Missions and almost no border moving. The conflict isn't based over war, it's being based on PvE access to what the players paid for.

Rogmar · May 18, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Because we purchased a game that allows for play with friends and family and would prefer to do that rather than join some "high-faction" farming alliance.

So try getting into the alliance with all your friends and family or don't get the reward the "high-faction" farming alliance gets.
Reward=Work=Time=Money
Do you really thing these missions were made for 1 man guilds?

Jagflame · May 18, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

The fact that it has nothing to do with guilds and alliances is exactly why it's a good solution. There shouldn't be any kind of requirement to belong to any organization to experience any part of the PVE game.

Excuse me? This is called Guild Wars for a reason. It is called a CORPG for a reason. And I don't want to put words into their mouth, but I garentee you AreaNet wants to promote members to take part in guilds and alliances.

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Really? I can join a high faction alliance with 10 guilds without leaving my current guild?

No. I was merely saying it why access was in no way impossible to get to for any member; I was not inferring that you should make such a decision.

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Why? It's not like the so-called "work" provides any difficulty or challenge besides keeping your eyes open. You might as well just write a bot to do the farming, because that would at least have some difficulty attached to it.

EDIT: Let's not go there. -Swampgirl

I am not argueing for the current system. I am argueing why it should not be given as instant access and instead must be earned.

leguma · May 18, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

One of the biggest problems with the alliance sisteams is that it is largely a one way street. Standing goes up, but it doesn't really go down, yes the decay is there, but it is not significant enough, nor propper.

Firstly, the decay is only a concern if you stop playing. This in effect forces you to play at least as much tomorrow as you did today, because the decay rate is exponential. Why A.net decided that they want a system that force sthe player to spend more and more time simply to be competitive is beyond me, it goes against everything else they do.

Secondly, the decay is "dumb" the GvG ladder has a sort of decay also, but there it is because other people are playing more than you and earning more victories, it is not because you are not playing.

IMHO all the problems stem from the way standing is handled.

Firstly, it is way too easy to get left behind. people that have just started a guild have a HUGE disadvantage that they may never be able to work off. An alliance's standing should be reset when they take control of a city. This way, standing can never go through the roof, and the holding cap would still work the same, but there would be no 'running start' advantages.

Secondly, faction (because standing is refined faction) is currently a individual thing. This is great and all, but it is absurd from the PoV of what they want to acomplish here. The game can tell a guild team from a random team, it does this in HA easily. Whenever a guild team acomplishes a task (read Alliance Battle / Challenge Mission / Competitive Mission) that guild should gain standing with the alliance. Faction is fine as it is for turning into amber and jade, and should stay that way, however, Alliance Standing should be tied in to the Alliance, translated into guild, doing things, not as the individual players.

Combining the two aformentioned things, not only would the standing and controll of towns be based on something more than just time spent on doing the same thing, but it would also make it much easier for people to catch up, or even take a day off and stop raking in faction.

Currently the system is as bad as the PvP one was when you had no faction.

Ascension · May 18, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Respect for the TC guild. It's good to see some of the "for all" spirit that this game lost after release. Congratulations, keep up the great work TC and crew!

Edit: I like some elements of the PvP system. This game was built upon skill in PvP, as such those with the most skill are rewarded. Grinding faction and training to dominate GvG/HoH are very different things. Although, I do not like many of the ego-stroking (as you all nicely put it) that goes on. I.e. rank, emotes, etc...

Sir Skullcrasher · May 18, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Here my perspective on elite mission. On one hand, it provide a challenge for players and guilds to do well in pvp to earn those faction points and control the line. Thus giving you rewards by giving you access into these elite mission areas which is only restricted (from reading different posts) to the guild with high faction points in either side. The other side of this reward is those great chests that dropped zodiac weapons which can't be gotten from any other places. On the other hand is that players and guilds that don't pvp much either have to become great at pvp and earn those points or hope for some nice guilds to offer free ride into those elite missions.

Look at the original Guild Wars where PvP is good for getting higher ranking and fame for your characters. Compare that with faction alliance system where they wanted to give peoples the incentive to keep pvping for their side in order to gain faction points and control the line. Althought i read posts about the line not moving (i have checked the line 5 day straight.. no movement too) I can see why non-pvp players and guilds are frustrated at this new system. Would peoples still pvp that much with just only fames and ranking in factions? who knows?

Jagflame · May 18, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Sir Skulkcrasher, most of the alliances with a high amount of faction got there by farming repeatable quests, not doing alliance battles.

Sir Skullcrasher · May 18, 2006, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Sir Skulkcrasher, most of the alliances with a high amount of faction got there by farming repeatable quests, not doing alliance battles.

So what is the alliance battles good for than? I can understand now that when some players i met online said that they are farming faction points, it is used to help them reach those elite missions.

Fyre Brand · May 18, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Excuse me? This is called Guild Wars for a reason. It is called a CORPG for a reason. And I don't want to put words into their mouth, but I garentee you AreaNet wants to promote members to take part in guilds and alliances.

No. I was merely saying it why access was in no way impossible to get to for any member; I was not inferring that you should make such a decision.

EDIT: Let's not go there. -Swampgirl

I am not argueing for the current system. I am argueing why it should not be given as instant access and instead must be earned.

I don't think there should be instant access to these missions either. I think the elite missions should only be opened after an individual has completed all the other the missions with the "master level" success. I agree that these missions should be group oriented, but I don't think it should have to be only linked to your guild. Some of the best FoW runs I've had have been with guildies and friends who come from other guilds. This way the mission access is difficult and earned on a personal level but a group is necessary for success.

I certainly don't believe the current system is really functioning as initially intended. I mean that I don't think the devs at ANet were hoping people would do massive faction farming runs. I do think they intended for alliance battles to be a main source of faction.

I'm just hoping the dev team is rethinking what is going on with this system.

WasAGuest · May 18, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

While reading all the posts here, it seems that many are wanting something in Factions that the system itself doesn't provide.

Factions was supposed to, in theory, make PvP mean something to PvE. It doesn't. It's still meaningless or simply another way to farm faction points when one's eyes begin to bleed from running back and forth.

The battle lines don't seem to do anything. There's no reason to be in an alliance other than just to allow guilds to chat together - unless you are in one of those huge alliances and farm all day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogmar

So try getting into the alliance with all your friends and family or don't get the reward the "high-faction" farming alliance gets.
Reward=Work=Time=Money
Do you really thing these missions were made for 1 man guilds?

Who's in a 1 man guild? The guild I'm in is about 20 strong. Most of us are pretty close friends and live near each other. Our alliance has a couple of other guilds in them.
I also have no intention of becoming a "faction farmer" for another guild. Sorry, I don't find farming anything enjoyable... in fact, Factions entire system is rather poor when it comes to the need of farming.

The funniest thing to me is hearing "you gotta work to gain it". Since when is work fun. This is a game. Games are supposed to be fun, not work. If I play through the game and end up with nothing to do later because I didn't "work" to gain end game content, why in the world would I purchase another Anet game? Why would anyone purchase another Anet game if they are not wanting to work.
Earn, yes. Gain through play? Yes. Work, as in farm all day? Bah, not fun.

As I already said, Anet's model doesn't work. There is no proper reward system in place for alliances. Blocking out people isn't a reward, it's a punishment for those who don't farm all day and does the reverse of what Anet has stated time and again: Skill over Time. There is no way to argue that. We can all see and all know that it takes no skill at all to run the Luxon supply quest. And any one with two traps can get into a PuG and farm the Duel quest for Kurzick. The system itself is broken. Because of the broken system, I say we ask Anet to open up the Elite Missions after the players have beaten Shiro so they can move on and start working on Chapter 4 (Chapter 2 team moves to Chapter 4). Why just Shiro? Because, it's a mission, non-competitive and therefore should have no ties or reliance on PvP.
An alternative method which may tie it to an alliance (and more farming) is for alliance members to donate 10k faction points each to gain access. Thus, unlocking the elite mission for the alliance and not the individual. Meaning:
Guild with 10 people must donate and have 100,000 faction points for the elite mission to be unlocked. If that guild gains a new member, the amount needed raises 10k. Alliance would work in the same manner. So, each person must donate 10k or someone else needs to take up the slack for that person.
That 100,000 is a far distant from the millions of points needed to control the city, but is achievable and dynamic to each situation.

WasAGuest · May 18, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyre Brand

I certainly don't believe the current system is really functioning as initially intended. I mean that I don't think the devs at ANet were hoping people would do massive faction farming runs. I do think they intended for alliance battles to be a main source of faction.

I'm just hoping the dev team is rethinking what is going on with this system.

Sorry for the double post. I agree with you here, however, if the devs do indeed read these forums like they say they do, then they would have seen the posts pre-release Factions when the player base said this is what Factions would be. I myself said the Factions PvE game was nothing more than a farm fest and would quickly turn into the players finding the fastest possible ways to get the faction they needed. Majority of PvE players doing this farming do not seem interested in the PvP side of the game (just as was stated hundreds of times in these forums and many others).

Even the alliance battles are broken in a way. A player tired of farming faction via runs or trap groups can enter a PvP game and go afk for a free 400 points. <-- Mentioned to show a point there are still many issues needing fixed and that the entire system does not work like it should.

Buoyancy · May 18, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Excuse me? This is called Guild Wars for a reason. It is called a CORPG for a reason. And I don't want to put words into their mouth, but I garentee you AreaNet wants to promote members to take part in guilds and alliances.

If Anet is going to try and force me to join an alliance or a guild to see all of their PVE game, then they won't see any of my money. I didn't buy Factions simply because they weren't giving me all of the character slots I wold have paid for, and their decision to make politics a part of gameplay only confirms that my decision was the correct one.

Quote:

I am not argueing for the current system. I am argueing why it should not be given as instant access and instead must be earned.

If it has to be "earned", then earning it should be as simple as completing the other available PVE missions at the very most. Ideally it would be open to any player from the moment their character first reaches the portion of the map that the mission starts from. It matters not one bit if that would mean that a level 1 character might enter.

Buoyancy · May 18, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Factions was supposed to, in theory, make PvP mean something to PvE. It doesn't. It's still meaningless or simply another way to farm faction points when one's eyes begin to bleed from running back and forth.

The problem with this idea is that nobody in their right mind would really want PVE to affect PVP or vice versa. They are separate styles of game, and while a person can enjoy both, they must be kept separate. I don't care if I'm not competitive in PVP, but the minute you try and make PVE competitive, you'll find the vast majority of people who have played previous MMOs crying foul. must donate 10k or someone else needs to take up the slack for

Thallandor · May 18, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

/agreed.

Opening up those Elite mission for players who completed the game by defeating shiro would indeed be the quickest fix for the current problem unless anet of course anet no longer hold the motto true: Skill over time. As we seem so far with factions.

But by doing the above, they are also admitting the design failure of the game as a whole since the lack of exclusive rewards for *intended* PvP activities by participating in alliance battles to shift borders(are anyone even borthered with this atm?) would soon dissolve the current FF community and land them into shock. - fastest fix would be to remove repeatable ff quest imho, but even i dont want to see them gone since i want my 15K w/o having to touch PvP

There has already been debates raised on the artificial lengthening of game despite claims that Factions is a full standalone game. The factions story is seemingly weak and shorter than GWP. I like the new armour, weapons, collectors, some skills and new greens but thats about it.

The next few step(updates) Anet makes will determine if they will put Factions back on track or it will continue to spiral into deeper dissappointments for many. I really like guildwars and would like it to do well but factions so far has not delivered its promises. The future looks bleak.